against tampa bay. i've got to tell you, it's a joy to be in my former boss, tip o'neill's hometown, telling the grand story about how and president ronald reagan were able to champion their own causes and yet find ways to deal good for america, to find good deals. we need some of that we're in this together spirit today, don't you think? that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. we begin tonight with a terrifying, extraordinary scene at the capital today when shots were fired, the capitol hill went into lockdown and law enforcement, including capitol hill police, the secret service, and the fbi went into full response mode. this is just part of the scene, captured by arabic language tv channel alhurra. a female suspect traveling in

her car with a child tried to breach a white house barrier and later was almost stopped near the capitol. >> whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. whoa! get this, get this. >> i am. i am. [ gunshots ] >> holy [ bleep ].

[ speaking foreign language ] >> come down, come down. [ speaking foreign language ] >> here's what we know at this hour. at about 2:18 this afternoon, the female suspect identified as miriam kerry of stanford, connecticut, traveling in a black infinity coupe with her

1-year-old daughter struck a security barrier surrounding the white house grounds at 15th street and ebe. the barrier was not breached and secret service uniformed division tried to stop the vehicle. police then gave chase for about 1 1/2 miles, all the way to constitution avenue and second street near the capitol. the vehicle ran several red lights durning a chase in which it reached speeds of 80 miles an hour. the suspect was ultimately shot and killed after crashing the car outside the senate office building, directly outside derrickson. the child is reportedly in protective custody. in the chaos of the moment, a police car responding to the emergency crashed into a barricade. >> oh, my -- what the [ bleep ] just happened! that was supposed to be -- oh, [ bleep ]!

>> police presence was massive and instantaneous. amid a shutdown in which capitol police are deemed essential personnel, but will not be paid, until after the shutdown comes to an end. the officer injured in this crash was taken to a hospital in a medevac helicopter. that officer, a 20-year veteran of the force, is reportedly in good condition. a second officer, a secret service officer, was also injured during the incident and is also reportedly in good condition. two sources tell nbc news the female suspect did not have a gun. all the shots reportedly came from law enforcement, not the woman in the car, according to a police source just briefed by the capitol hill police. the incident placed the capitol in lockdown for about an hour. both chambers were in session at the time and some lawmakers heard the shots from their position inside the capitol building. tourists with few options amid a partially closed capitol were caught in the chaos. an incredible scene on a day when washington was already in a state of supreme tension and agitation. joining me now with the latest

is msnbc news justice correspondent, pete williams. and pete, what do we know at this hour about why this took place, what possible motivation there was? >> nothing. the best indication we have is from police officials and congressional officials who were -- excuse me -- briefed by the investigators, who simply say that the woman had a history of what they call mental issues. but the rest is all questions. why did she come from washington? she worked up in connecticut as a dental hygienist. why did she come down here. why did she go to the white house. after her encounter at the white house, that's where the secret service was injured, when she basically hit the secret service agent with her car. he was injured, but the injuries are not serious. he received minor injuries, the secret service says. then she drove up to the capitol, where this happened, where she was stopped and then she backed into the police -- or the secret service vehicle, and then kept going after they were

shooting. remember, all the while, there is this 1-year-old child in the car with her. so what possessed her to do this, what possessed her to do any of these things, to disobey repeated verbal commands to stop, repeated shots fired at her car. we don't know whether, as you're seeing these pictures now, whether she at this point is wounded. we have to assume that she is. these were -- you saw those shots fired at relatively close range, as she was fleeing. but all the questions, i think, are going to take a while to answer. the police are searching for house in connecticut tonight. they're going to talk to neighbors, her employer. she has some relatives in new york city. they're talking to them, to try to get a better picture of what happened. >> it was remarkable to me two things. one is that as the story came out that she was able to make

her way, the mile and a half from the white house to the capitol, and second of all, that the -- >> well, that part, i think, is not very surprising, because once you get away from the immediate area around the white house, the only thing that's going to prevent you from getting to the capitol is traffic. >> right. >> 2:15 on a day when the capitol is going through a shutdown, a lot of federal employees are not here, the traffic is not heavy as usual. she just was, you know, obviously, she wasn't concerned about her safety at any of these points. she's blasting through red lights, going at a very high speed. but she does, i mean, i think it's telling that -- i don't know if she knew where she was going. pennsylvania avenue to the u.s. capitol is a fairly direct route, from the white house to the base of capitol hill. whether she knew that she was -- that was her next destination or not, she headed to the same -- to the part of the city that had the greatest on the street security. >> pete williams from nbc news, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> you bet. >> joining me now is senator bernie sanders, independent from vermont. he heard the gunshots on capitol hill today. and senator, describe the scene to me.

>> well, i was leaving a meeting in the capitol, going back to my office at the dirkson office building. and about halfway there, i heard these police cars driving furiously down constitutional avenue. their sirens blaring. and then just at that point, i heard four or five gunshots. and, you know, one began -- then you began to see a whole lot of police officers converging on the scene, telling people to get down, get down. another senator and i ducked behind a car and then we were escorted back into the capitol. >> it was remarkable to me how efficiently and quickly the capitol police seemed to get the situation under control, keep the lockdown, and then they lifted the lockdown, and then, actually, the congress resumed business in the afternoon. >> no, that's -- that's absolutely right. a, these guys are very well trained. and they do a good job. second of all, i think people are on edge. everybody remembers the two or

three weeks ago, we had this terrible shooting in the navy yard. i think 12 people were killed. there's a lot of tension going on on capitol hill now with the government shutdown. so it's a tense time. but they know their job and they did it very well. >> they also, one has to add, are part of the federal workforce that is being affected by the shutdown. there's a certain irony here today about the fact that amidst the shutdown, these are some of those workers that are being directly affected. >> chris, that's a very important point. here are these guys, putting their lives on the line every day. and you'll remember about 15 years ago, two guys got killed when some deranged gunman walked into the capitol. but it's true all over the country. we have now over 1 million people who are working. they're protecting the borders. i think they're in intelligence agencies, they're doing head start work, they're delivering

meals to frail, elderly people on dirt roads in vermont. you have all of these folks out there. and right now, they don't know if they're going to get paid, day don't know when they're going to get paid. and like everybody else in this country, they have mortgages to pay. they have college loans to pay, and it is grotesquely unfair that this is happening to them. they're under a lot of anxiety, and it's just wrong. >> senator bernie sanders of vermont, always a pleasure. thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up -- >> he's hurt, but he said, i'm paraphrasing, but not much. he said, i work every day to make sure you're safe. and when he says "me," he's not talking about me, he's talking about us. my thoughts are with him for a speedy recovery and again my administration goes to all federal law enforcement, but especially our capitol police. >> that was senator harry reid, himself a former u.s. capitol police officer, i learned that today, talking about his conversation with the officer who was injured today during the

incident in washington, d.c. there is a great irony to all of the collective administration and outpouring we saw from congress today for these folks and we will talk about it, coming up. coming up later in the show, a peek inside the republican shutdown strategy courtesy of an open mic. we'll be right back. female announcer: save up to 35%

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coming up later in the show, a peek inside the republican shutdown strategy courtesy of an open mic. we'll be right back.

huge deserved appreciation on the house floor today for the capitol police, which worked with other law enforcement to secure the capitol and pursue

the suspect amid the chaos on capitol hill. as we mentioned, one capitol police officer was injured and hospitalized after his squad car crashed during the chase. numerous lawmakers tweeted out their appreciation for capitol police officers in the aftermath of the incident, with this tweet from republican congressman bill shuster striking a typical tone, "all of us on capitol hill owe a debt of gratitude to the capitol police who keep us safe every day." it was a little hard to escape the irony, of course, that these police officers were risking their lives to protect the very people like shuster who shut the government down and caused a delay on their paychecks. while capitol police are required to provide protection during a shutdown, they don't get paid for their work until lawmakers decide to fund the government, which could be a little while, when they are paid retroactively. that is cold comfort for the capitol police officers, the federal government workers, who need to pay their bills right now. as reporter adam snyder sarcastically tweeted, "so glad the capitol police got that house ovation that they can use to feed their families and pay their mortgages." with me now is gerry connelly. what do you think about watching these men do their duty at the same time that republicans in congress are essentially denying them their paycheck? >> you know, it's awfully hard

to put a kind word to it, chris. hypocrisy comes to mind. do you have no sense of shame comes to mind. here are people we're applauding, who responded to what could have got -- been an incident that got way out of control. we really weren't sure. and they responded with professionalism under very atypical circumstances. and their thanks is we stand up and applaud them. but of course, meanwhile, they're not big paid. and many of these capitol hill police officers, you know, are frankly of modest means. and to be denied that cash flow is a great hardship for them and their families. >> congressman, you represent a district in northern virginia that has a lot of federal workers in it. what are you hearing from their constituents about the effects of this shutdown, as people are now starting to say, well, we're definitely going to go another two weeks? >> i think there is a growing sense, chris, of angst that the republican strategy, what's emerging as the republican strategy is, we're actually going to play games, but keep the government shutdown and get close to the october 17th debt ceiling date and then have -- strike a bargain, or threaten to strike a bargain. meanwhile, we're holding federal workers, and of course the american people, hostage for the better part of 21 days. >> there does not seem to be a lot of urgency in the house republican caucus about the shutdown.

>> i think there is a growing sense, chris, of angst that the republican strategy, what's emerging as the republican strategy is, we're actually going to play games, but keep the government shutdown and get close to the october 17th debt ceiling date and then have -- strike a bargain, or threaten to strike a bargain. meanwhile, we're holding federal workers, and of course the american people, hostage for the better part of 21 days. >> there does not seem to be a lot of urgency in the house republican caucus about the shutdown. in fact, everything you're hearing from the reporting from leadership is, they're gaining this out for a few weeks. i want to play something, it's a clip of stewart varney, on fox business news, talking about federal workers, because there's part of me that thinks, the

hardship federal workers are receiving from this is actually a feature, not a bug. take a listen. >> i don't think they should get that back pay, frankly, i really don't. i'm sick and tired the of a massive, bloated federal bureaucracy living on our backs and taking money out of us, a lot more money than most of us earn in the private sector, then getting a furlough, and then getting their money back at the end of it. sorry, i'm not for that. i want to punish these people. >> do you think your colleagues on the republican side of the aisle want to punish these people? >> i sure hope not. what you just played is one of the most mean-spirited, self-centered, exaggerated expositions of what the federal government is and what the workers who work for the federal government do i've ever heard. that is an insult to anyone in public service and it certainly insults the american people. i'm just astounded. and i would hope that's a minority view on the republican side of the aisle. >> but it is part of, i mean, part of the broader context of this whole shutdown, of course,

is the idea that coming from the right, the federal government is bloated, that it needs to be cut, that it actually is kind of a drain on americans' liberty and freedom, and actually maybe people will like having the federal government shut down. >> well, i guess they're betting on that. but this is a cut the government at any price, you know, the ryan budget cut the federal budget by $5 trillion over ten years. $5 trillion with a "t." you know, they just cut $40 billion in the s.n.a.p. program, the food stamp program, cutting 3.8 million people off the rolls, half of them children. and now they're playing this game, and by the way, they got the lower number. >> and they refused to take yes for an answer. thank you, congressman gerry connly. coming up, an incident was caught on camera at the world war ii memorial that tells you everything you need to know. >> park services should be

ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> well, you should be. >> this clip will make your blood boil. i'll show it to you, next.

this is congressman randy neugebauer, republican from texas.

he says he's going to keep the government shut down for, quote, as long as it takes. but when it comes to the world war ii memorial, which is part of this as long as it takes shutdown, randy neugebauer decided to make a public show of berating a park services employee who has absolutely nothing to do with closing the government. >> how do you look at them and say, how do you deny them access? i don't get that. >> it's difficult. >> well, it should be difficult. >> it is difficult. i'm sorry, sir. >> park services should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> you should. >> -- people who aren't passing the budget. >> this woman is doing her job, just like him. a 30-year federal veteran. i'm out of work. >> the reason you are is because mr. reid -- >> no, it's because the government went do its job and pass a budget. >> let's take this somewhere else. >> good for that guy in the bicycle helmet, speaking up, because i was as angry as he was when i saw that clip, but that disgraceful display by the

congressman from texas is not to work of one loose cannon lawmaker, it's part and parcel of the only thing the republican party seems to do anymore. i'll explain what it is, next.

we are now three days into the shutdown of the federal government. why are republicans set on keeping the shutdown going? the answer is, nobody knows. not even republicans. we now know that the republican shutdown is about nothing. and today, we have the definitive evidence in the form of a quote from congressman marlin stutsman, venting his

frustration about the lack of progress in the hostage negotiations his party started. congressman stutsman said this. >> we're not going to be disrespected, so that's where we're at today, where we have to get something out of this, and i don't know what that even is. >> reporter: it's almost as if republicans don't know what they are mad about. >> i don't know what we're yelling about! >> with the illusion of legislative substance out of the way, republicans are focusing on the one thing they're good at, shaping the message. >> do you have a second? >> i'm all wired up here. >> i just go over and over again. we're willing to compromise, we're willing to negotiate. i don't think they poll tested that we won't negotiate. i think it's awful for them to say that over and over again. >> i do too. and i just came back from a two-hour meeting with them and that was basically the same view privately as it was publicly. >> i think if we keep saying, we wanted to defund it, we fought for that, but now we're willing to compromise on that, i think

we can -- we're going to -- well, i know we don't want to be here, but we're going to win this, i think. >> those were kentucky's senators, honing the latest gop talking points fresh after each man used them on live tv. >> i hear from the american people all the time, why don't you guys compromise? >> well, there will have to be a compromise. >> we've been offering some compromises. >> the american people expect us to negotiate. >> they're saying we won't negotiate. >> which is he doesn't want to negotiate. >> i can't understand why a compromise or negotiation would be bad. >> reporter: rand paul and mitch mcconnell were just sticking to the message, because with the president refusing to negotiate with hostage takers, the message is all they have left. from their message about the world war ii memorial -- >> there was a time during the attack in benghazi when there were five people there. today there were seven people trying to keep the world war ii vets from seeing the monument. >> and they sent more guards to the world war ii memorial today than they did to benghazi.

>> reporter: to their message about democrats' heartlessness towards cancer patient. >> listen to this, senator majority leader harry reid said saving a child with cancer is not his priority. >> while we work out our differences here in washington, children should not be denied the treatment. >> don't take hope away from those families. >> it is obama and the democrats who want these kids with cancer not being allowed to visit the hospital. >> reporter: and finally, to the grand daddy of them all, the talking point about president obama negotiating with everyone but republicans. >> let me see if i understand this. the president will talk to syria, iran, vladimir putin, but he won't talk to members of the house. >> he'll negotiate with iran, putin, but he won't sit down and talk -- >> he will negotiate with syria, who will negotiate with putin, who will negotiate with iran. >> iranians and syrians and russians -- >> he wants to say he's not going to negotiate with boehner, but he will negotiate with putin. >> he can talk to iran, but don't talk to congressional leaders. >> but he won't talk with a

republican! >> this is just ridiculous. we've got the president who is willing to negotiate with iran, russia, and syria, but not with the members of congress. >> potus negotiates with iran, putin, but not congress, #shocking. >> the president has the time to negotiate with iran. >> shows he'll negotiate with the iranians. >> negotiate with the nation of iran. >> who he refers to america as being satan. >> but wait a second -- >> you can talk to irans, talk to -- >> i've heard that talking point a lot. >> it's a good talking point. >> reporter: republicans cling so tightly to their message to obscure one thing, obama care, the original reason that republicans shut down the u.s. government, well, it looks like it might be working. disney just announced it will be offering full-time positions to 427 part-time employees in florida to qualify for obama care. and across the country, people are signing up for obama care. people like butch matthew, a republican, who signed up for

obama care after he realized it would save him $13,000. kimberly, an uninsured worker was relieved after she signed up. >> i found out today that i do qualify at my level and so i'm excited about that. >> reporter: reverend donald morton didn't have insurance before this week. >> i, myself, was not approved for health care because of pre-existing conditions. so while i'm a pastor, while i have a ph.d, i'm a regular season. >> joining me now is republican congressman, blake farrenthold from texas. congressman, i feel like i've lost the plot a little bit with the shutdown. so you want to defund obama care, right? >> listen, we've already given up defunding obama care. we just want fairness now, where if you don't want to sign up for obama care as an individual, you don't have to. >> wait, is it your now position that you no longer support

defunding obama care? >> listen, i've -- i support defunding obama care, but we've already given that up in our third pitch to the united states senate. we're saying, let's treat individuals -- >> no, but here's the thing -- >> -- the same way we treat corporations and labor unions. >> but here's what it looks like right now. this is how i understand the shutdown. the republicans are shutting down the government because the president and harry reid won't let them un-shut down certain parts of the government. >> that's not the case at all. >> but that's all you're talking about -- no one's talking about obama care. >> we have agreed to un-fund -- in one of our offers to the senate, we agreed to un-fund 100% of the government, including obama care, which was a stretch for me as a conservative. all we were asking was that individuals not be fined if they don't sign up, if they choose not to. anybody who wants to can. that was our last offer. >> but congressman, i just want us to be honest here. the reason you want to delay the individual mandate is because

you don't like obama care and you want to get rid of it. i don't understand hiding the ball. a week ago, at least, your caucus was being honest about this. you guys don't like obama care, you want to get rid of it, now all i'm getting, this is the message of the day, which i've heard from other people, which is we want fairness. but let's be honest here. you want to get rid of the law! >> absolutely. and we think -- >> thank you. >> -- the law will collapse under its own weight. and we're trying to mitigate the damage in the meantime. >> congressman, that is the weird thing. because you think the law will collapse under its own weight, and this is a thing i can never understand, i don't think you're being disengenous. this is an article from "bloomberg businessweek" of the experience of one call center who was taking calls on the first day of signup in nevada. when the website opened 17 minutes later, the website was flooded with inquiries. in the first few hours, it was just raw emotion calling in.

people eager for insurance, at times in tears, wanted to get coverage they didn't have before. so why do you want to take away these people's health insurance? >> we don't. >> yes, you do. you just told me you want to defund obama care. >> our last offer was allowing -- >> you voted to defund obama care four days ago. >> -- to sign up, and believe me, that was a stretch for a lot of us. >> congressman blake farrenthold from texas, thank you very much. >> my pleasure. >> joining me now, senator tammy, a senator of the budget committee. congressman was making a reasonable question, delay the individual mandate for a year. what's wrong with that? >> well, this is about the government shutdown, and we need to focus right now on reopening the government. this is not the context in which to deal with their animosity to the affordable care act. and that's the crisis that's

facing us right now, frankly. we sent, from the senate, a continuing funding res resolution to the house of representatives last friday. they need to act. it is time. speaker boehner needs to put that continuing funding resolution for six weeks now, he needs to put it before the house. we are very confident there would be a bipartisan majority who would pass that, and the government would open up and then we can get to the negotiations on the debt ceiling as well as the other challenges that america wants us to be -- to be tackling right now. but the challenges are growing our middle class, growing manufacturing jobs, helping out small businesses -- >> senator, we're hearing from the republican leadership, it sounds like their gaming this out, that this is going to be a week and a half. i mean, what is the leverage here? what is the leverage that you in the senate or the president has over this house republican caucus, which doesn't seem to be guided by the normal laws of political gravity?

>> well, certainly, when we face the deadline that's looming on october 17th, we have something that is of enormous consequence. and i was just reflecting earlier today, we saw a video of president ronald reagan addressing the congress saying, we have never defaulted on our debt, and i call on congress to make sure that we don't cross over that line in -- this was back in the 1980s, obviously. this is something that we must not do. and we have heard earlier today that that's a line that most moderate republicans will not cross. but that's, i think, why they're dragging out this government shutdown. and they're putting politics ahead of progress. that's what is so frustrating to americans. you know, we came here -- i ran for the senate, my counterparts ran for the house, because we want to be working on the economy.

we want to be growing good jobs for the middle class. we want to be looking at the future and what the future holds for the next generation. and the fact that we are seeing these political games being played is outrageous. >> senator tammy baldwin of the great state of wisconsin, one of my favorites, thank you so much. >> thank you. coming up, how republicans' latest shutdown stunt. maybe stuntdown. should we call it stuntdown? it involves stethoscopes and no shame. it's unbelievable. we'll be right back. maybe you've noticed. is there a lot of worry building up around a daily problem?

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i'm sorry i had to wake you. i'm just looking for a doctor. there's nothing to worry about. >> stewardess, i think the man sitting next to me is a doctor. >> sir, excuse me, sir. i'm sorry to have to wake you, are you a doctor? >> that's right. >> we have some passengers that are very sick. could you come take a look at them? >> yes. >> hi, everyone, you might be wondering why i'm wearing this stethoscope. you know i'm not a doctor. and i probably look ridiculous. probably as ridiculous as house republicans looked this afternoon amid their latest stunt. >> when the president shut down the government this past tuesday, i don't think they realized the impact on things like cancer trials, for children can with cancer. i've taken care of many children with cancer during my medical practice, and as a parent, every

parent can appreciate the seriousness of that and the need to solve those can kind of problems. >> that was georgia representative tom price, with other house republicans, introducing a bill to restore funding, just to the national institutes of health. so why is that ridiculous? because congressman price is wearing his lab coat and stethoscope, even though he hasn't practiced medicine since he opted to run for the house senate? 1996. and i'm guessing the rest of those people standing behind him in lab coats haven't practiced medicine in quite some time either. and the on reason eric cantor wasn't in a lab coat is because he doesn't have a medical degree. but if the costuming didn't tip you off this was a stunt, there are two other dead giveaways. one, house republicans did not propose a mini continuing resolution to fund the nih until this story ran tuesday in the "wall street journal," which pointed out that since the government shutdown, the national institutes of health began turning away dozens of children, many suffering from cancer from drug tries. suddenly, when they're getting bad press from the "wall street journal" of all places, house

republicans find their conscience. and two, remember, this is the same house republican caucus that brought us the real world hurt of sequestration cuts back in january, when it cut nih funding by $1.55 billion, which cuts research and delays progress in the development of better cancer drugs, which will have long-lasting effects, considering medical breakthroughs do not happen overnight, but rather three years of incremental research. in fact, this specific cut to the nih was so troubling to all on "all in," that we invited republican congressman renee ellmers on the show, who to her credit, sponsored a bill to restore the nih's funding, because it's the right thing to do. and do you know how many vote that is bill got? zero. and do you know why it got zero votes? because house speaker john boehner never brought it to the floor. joining me now is dr. georges benjamin, executive director of the american public health association. dr. benjamin, there is an

argument that republicans are making which is that if you care about cancer treatment, if you care about what's happening in the nih because of the government shutdown, just fund the nih. what do you think of that argument? >> chris, how you doing? my problem with that is that's a false choice. i care a lot about those 200 people and 30 kids who have cancer. but i also care about the 48 million people who get food-borne illness every year and the 3,000 who die. i'm concerned about the fact that we're in flu season and we aren't tracking the flu like we ought to. i'm concerned about the fact that hospitals aren't being adequately regulated, and, you know, we have 100,000 people who die each and every year because of medical errors. we've got a lot of the issues here we have to deal, and health care as a system, and that stunt that they pulled just doesn't cut it. >> there's been a lot of effects, effects on sequestration, before we got to the shutdown, cdc was doing cancer screenings that had to be cut back. have you seen in your role as running a public health organization, have you seen the effects of that?

>> we've lost over 44,000 local health department workers over the last few years, both because of the federal and local cuts because of the economy and the sequestration and these cuts at the federal level have just made that worse. we're losing whole programs, including our bioterrorism preparedness programs. big cuts there. so we're having significant problems throughout the health care system. >> is there an argument that you can make to the public about the importance of investing in these kinds of programs, and what ends up happening, the reason that we're talking about nih cuts and being shut down is because it's part of the discretionary budget that has been the focus of such battle between republicans and democrats, and it's rolled into the other stuff government does. why does this stuff matter? why is it important? >> you know, we often ignore prevention until something bad happens.

and i can tell you, when i was at the state health department in maryland, dealing with -- responding to the tornado that occurred in southern maryland or the anthrax letters or west nile virus or the drought and we've had, you know, tornadoes all around the country, we get them every spring, and we're probably going to get some terribly this spring, the health departments respond to that. we've had a big flu season, we had a pandemic flu. good news was, the mortality wasn't as high as we feared, but we did have it. and flu season comes each and every year and people need to get their flu shots. >> dr. georges benjamin, thank you so much for your time. joining me now is publisher of the federalist, web magazine, senior fellow of the heartland institute, and sam seder. all right, ben, i have been beating up on republicans all night. i'm in a very red meaty mood this afternoon because i'm super angry and frustrated about the

shutdown. and i genuinely feel like i have lost the plot on this thing. like, i knew four days ago when they wanted to defund obama care, i guess, why they were shutting down the government. they seem to think that the message of defunding obama care doesn't work, so now the message is about the shutdown himself, but i don't understand why they're shutting the government down. i want you to answer for me after this break.

democratic texas state senator wendy davis burst on to the political scene after her epic filibuster of a bill restricting abortion a few months ago. today she announced she's running for governor of texas and tomorrow i'll tell you how she's the one who can save obama care. we'll be right back.

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back now with ben domenech and sam seder. all right, ben, why are republicans shutting the government down? >> because it's the only way they know how to force the president to start a negotiation process with them over the most unpopular aspects of obama care, in their view. by this point, after so many negotiations, these guys are

just tired of looking at each other. and that's one of the things that i think is playing into this. i want to speak to a moment about what you were saying earlier about the nih. the nih funding has gone up dramatically over the years, and actually that's because of senate republicans under bill frist, leading the charge to double nih spending over the course of a decade. and in fact, it was a republican measure that would have restored those sequester cuts that was attached to the senate budget earlier this year. it's not quite fair to say that republicans intended to send all these kids kicking and screaming off of the cancer trials -- >> no, i'm not saying that. that's what they've been saying about harry reid for two days. i'm not saying that. in fact, you're right, bill frist was an incredible champion of the nih. that's why we had renee ellmers on. but the fact of the matter is, the sequester, which has become the baseline, which republicans hated but now embrace, is a baseline that mandates cut. let's keep in mind, the number

of sequester, the reason the house couldn't pass a appropriations bill on transportation was that their own caucus couldn't carry the votes to do it. >> i want to get back to the point of whether or not it's fair to blame the republicans for what's happening with the nih. basically what we're hearing from the republicans is basically, you know, we were stuck on traffic, we wanted to drive our car on a busy sidewalk. it's not our fault that people got hit. that's basically the point. the idea that the republicans are using this as a negotiation of legislation that has already been litigated and incredibly irresponsible and reckless. it is equivalent to driving your car on a busy sidewalk and saying, like, you know, my intention was no to hit people. well, the fact of the matter is, any person who knows better, knows that's what's going to happen. >> ben? >> just as with every negotiation that we've seen in the past, just with h.w. bush, when it was democrats shutting down the government and fighting over the debt ceiling in order to extract tax increases from

him, we've seen this play out in the past. this is the process that washington goes through -- >> no, that is -- >> i understand these historical anal justice. in fact, government shutdowns, like the one we're having right now, are abnormal, but not extremely freakish, right? i think we've had 17 since the modern budget process was inaugurated. the most actually under ronald reagan and tip o'neill, who of course we all now think of, chris matthews just wrote a book about this, about having this amazing relationship, those were the most shutdowns. but they handled the debt ceiling negotiation in 2011, the way they're handling it now is genuinely unprecedented. you have people like ted cruz going around saying to cameras, it's not that big a deal if we go through. >> and historically, the real question is, had a continuing resolution or a budget been brought up at that time and the congress had the opportunity to vote on it, would they have voted to approve it? and the fact is, that bill hits the floor right now.

there are enough members of congress to pass the continuing resolution. so you have one man who is afraid of losing his speakership, essentially, saying, it's either my losing the speakership or the government shutting down. >> what about this idea that boehner should bring the clean cr to the floor for a vote? >> i don't think that there's any motivation to do that? i think there's more motivation, frankly, after the president's most recent remarks, to persuade the people who are worried about the markets to bring a clean debt ceiling increase forward as opposed to dealing with the cr. i think that the shutdown from the perspective of republicans is actually working out for them a lot better than they expected. which is one of the reasons why i don't think we're likely to see it end anytime soon. >> that's interesting. you think you could imagine a clean debt ceiling brought to the floor while the government is still shut down and the cr, and the sort of pressure of the shutdown hangs over everyone. >> the american people are a lot less concerned about bureaucrats staying home and not getting pay than they are about the marketplace -- >> ben, but here's the thing. you can't do this, though. what you just did there is you just articulated the sort of deep conservative thinking about this whole thing. this is that the money that's flowing out of the federal

government is going into the pockets of the bureaucrats who aren't getting their pay. but we're also talking about the cancer kids getting turned away from the -- and the women not getting nutritional assistance for their kids. >> but, see, chris, this is the situation that republicans are actually enjoying now, because from their perspective, they said, you know, democrats stuck to the tile on the senate side to carve out things for the military, why aren't they taking time to carve out things for their kids. it's setting up against their own agenda and that's something i think that republicans like to see happen. >> we agree that they are relishing and enjoying -- they didn't like the first day of the shutdown, but they have loved days two and three. they love going to the world war ii memorial, love putting on lab coats, love walking around with stethoscopes. i don't what it's going to be tomorrow -- >> i imagine we'll see some republicans dressed in national guard outfits. >> this is perfect. this is ben's point. this is a congressman from arkansas, i believe. so here are the headlines on the wic program, which is

nutritional assistance for women and infant children. s there there is a republican congressman from arkansas saying, okay, let's just do funding for wic. it's like, what's the headline today that's bad about the shutdown, and then the next day, here's a mini cr to fix that thing. >> i think the thing that -- i think republicans are deluding themselves if they think this message is getting across to the american public. i mean, look, the bottom line is, if the story is big enough to force people to dress up as doctors, to dress people -- to dress up in such -- >> as they were actually doctors. >> i'm sure they pulled it right out of their closet. the stories are big enough to reach the american public. if you look in the local papers across the country over the past couple of days, republicans are getting realmed in editorials, they are getting realmed in stories about missing women, who cannot be found because of cut backs, federal cutbacks, of people to go and search for her.

this is happening across the country and republicans are deluding themselves if they think these piecemeal pieces are going to mean anything. >> if we agree that a delay in the mandate just not going to happen, what's the out here? >> i think that's a question that you have to ask the bulk of boehner's caucus. they have to decide on what the actual victory is. but i do think that they're going to insist on a victory. it depends on the size and the nature of that, that they are going to insist on a policy victory, which is why i think you'll see a continued can kick and see continued holding to this. >> but why is it -- we did this thing last night about -- well, we did a thing last night about the ryan budget and how close the current sequestration levels are to the ryan budget. and the thing to me is, when i look around, i look at this as a keynesian lefty who wants to see stimulus and thinks the fact that we have all these people unemployed is absolutely a national scandal and we have a huge demand problem. i feel like you guys already won. ben domenech and sam seder, thank you both, gentleman. >> thank you, chris. our "all in" reporter has written a lot more about the

impacts of the shutdown. you can check that out over on our website. a fantastic reporter. you should definitely go check those stories out. and earlier tonight we played a clip of republican annie harris from maryland and mistakenly identified him as congressman tom price. that is my bad. that is "all in" for this evening. the "rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thank you, chris. on november 4th, 1995, the prime minister of israel was assassinated and killed by a lone gunman as he was leaving a political rally. he was leaving a rally that was held in tel aviv. he was heading toward his car and three shots rang out. two hit him. he was struck in the chest and in the spleen and a few hours later, at a local hospital, he died. he was murdered by an israeli extremist who was angry at him for having participated in u.s.-led peace talks a few years earlier. this is prime minister rabin along with president clinton and the palestinian leader, yasser arafat. after rabin was murdered, world